tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post7505216481653089765..comments2024-03-28T10:30:51.283+01:00Comments on Grain de musc: Looking back on Chanel 31 rue Cambon: the Chypre Illusioncarmencanada /Grain de Muschttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-39153882018809152412010-03-07T22:22:31.133+01:002010-03-07T22:22:31.133+01:00Zazie, the discussions around classification are n...Zazie, the discussions around classification are not necessarily subjective, it's just that different authors establish different criteria. Michael Edwards, for instance, doesn't use chypre in his classification.<br />Amoureuse used to be a chypre, but it's been de-oakmossed recently. I don't know about the Rose Chyprée because I don't know Andy Tauer's perfumes: they're not available in Paris.<br />I wouldn't class Manoumalia or Oeillet in the family: both to me are floral, though the first does have a darkness due to the vetiver.<br />Not all chypres are "airless": think of Diorella for instance, or Le Parfum de Thérèse.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-87545302725107580702010-03-04T12:36:24.853+01:002010-03-04T12:36:24.853+01:00Reading these two discussions on the term "ch...Reading these two discussions on the term "chypre", I feel better: classification is always a tricky job (ah, subjectivity!), and I'm glad I'm not the only one a bit confused...<br /> I get especially surpired when I discover that some of my favorites floral-orientals are classified as "nuoveau chypres".<br />31 rue cambon, was a floral (and a bit fruity) oriental to my nose... but I'm talking here of a general impression conveyed by the fragrance, rather than its structure. <br />Of course, I must be wrong, since the belonging of 31RC to the C family seems given for granted.<br />But when I think chypre, I think of mitsouko and its siblings, I think of bright tops on a musty, dusty backdrop...I think of thick shimmering dark velevts and lack of air space and I think not me.<br />So, BTW, would you classify L'amoureuse and Une rose chyprée, two fragrances I like very much, as chypres? To me, they are both (honeyed) floral orientals.<br />There are only two recent perfumes that convey to me the same musty shimmering feeling of Ol' Mitsy: Manoumalia and Oeillet from the Prada exclusive line. Are they "Nuoveau Chypres"?<br /><br />Though passionate, I fear I'm proving myself very ignorant once again :( ...Zazienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-38474026525356036992010-02-27T09:13:51.517+01:002010-02-27T09:13:51.517+01:00Heidi, "materials-driven" perfumery is a...Heidi, "materials-driven" perfumery is a term I've coined to designate the contemporary style of building a fragrance around the specific qualities of a raw material. The Hermessences are the best case in point, but some of the Chanel Exclusives also work that way (which Jacques Polge confirmed to me), the L'Art et la Matière collection from Guerlain, some of the Serge Lutens (Tubéreuse Criminelle, Iris Silver Mist, the Bois series), etc.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-82221814352950190462010-02-27T09:09:53.732+01:002010-02-27T09:09:53.732+01:00Anita, there was some talk a couple of years ago a...Anita, there was some talk a couple of years ago about a 31RC extrait: Jacques Polge told me they were considering it, but clearly, they didn't go ahead.<br />It's JC Ellena's book that helped me clarify the idea of using memory -- or even tricking it -- into olfactory illusions. I find it fascinating, and hope to be able to dig into it further some day.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-3988606978936909332010-02-27T09:07:28.165+01:002010-02-27T09:07:28.165+01:00Moon Palace, I love the dry leather chypres too bu...Moon Palace, I love the dry leather chypres too but it's the fruity chypres that suit me best -- Mitsouko's spawn, as it were. Of course, give me vintage Bandit and I can do the tough chypres too!carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-39952554281001403662010-02-27T04:44:23.362+01:002010-02-27T04:44:23.362+01:00Great essay, thank you!
What do you mean by &quo...Great essay, thank you! <br /><br />What do you mean by "materials driven" perfumery?<br /><br />HeidiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-15050319807762810422010-02-27T03:34:24.132+01:002010-02-27T03:34:24.132+01:00Absolutely gorgeous post, as always. And thank yo...Absolutely gorgeous post, as always. And thank you for identifying that elusive 'thing' (not quite scent - more an intimation of scent?) that has teased me since I first visited 31RC - it's the Aromatics Elixir that I can wear, the Bandit I can love - yet, of course, it is so much more.<br /><br />if this comes in extrait, I am lost!<br /><br />xoAnitaMusettehttp://www.bearboring.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-30054220862825853692010-02-27T00:04:06.786+01:002010-02-27T00:04:06.786+01:00Sales pitch are intellectually dishonest, they'...Sales pitch are intellectually dishonest, they're not facts. The marketing people know it's better to approach the issue from the customer's perspective and not serious knowledge foundation.<br /><br />I get CdR's frosty iris, it's quite nice but it lacks the velvety luxurious feel I experience in the vintage parfum. <br />I love dry leather chypres: Empreinte, Sikkim, Azuree, you name it!Uellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00470633955030465849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-31481762712732495202010-02-26T23:48:24.034+01:002010-02-26T23:48:24.034+01:00Moon Palace, I'd assume most Chanel customers ...Moon Palace, I'd assume most Chanel customers wouldn't know a chypre if it bitchslapped them. So there's no point in selling 31 as one. Fruity powdery floral, now that's a good sales pitch.<br />I like the current Cuir de Russie better than you do, apparently. We've got IFRA to thank for the new formula, but to me, it's still the best currently available leather. Then again, I'm not into rough leather scents, and I do get the frosty iris in it.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-65182827921392347782010-02-26T23:41:33.291+01:002010-02-26T23:41:33.291+01:00carmencanada, didn't know you were into fracta...carmencanada, didn't know you were into fractals! LOL <br /><br />Here in the US the people at Chanel talk about powdery fruity floral but not chypre - is this because they're ignorant or they assume the clientele is ignorant or because "chypre" sounds too negative in a "old lady" sort of way? It's got to be something like that.<br />The new Cuir de Russie bears no resemblance with the original parfum - where is the buttery smooth leather with hints of dry cool frosty notes that intoxicates the senses? The current edt smells like a fizzy humid floral mess, the leather is left to the imagination.Uellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00470633955030465849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-92106370415874668062010-02-26T18:36:05.772+01:002010-02-26T18:36:05.772+01:00Ce commentaire a été supprimé par l'auteur.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-41696303851989142142010-02-26T18:36:05.143+01:002010-02-26T18:36:05.143+01:00Alyssa, to me chypre does have olfactory qualities...Alyssa, to me chypre does have olfactory qualities: a sparkling overture, dark earthy base and amber-floral heart. There need to be those types of notes for there to be chypritude, but they don't necessarily have to be the classic materials.<br />The key element, as you say, is structure: chypre is a rather corseted genre.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-34767328698397504582010-02-26T18:01:43.909+01:002010-02-26T18:01:43.909+01:00Goodness--forgive the typos and tangles. And I see...Goodness--forgive the typos and tangles. And I see I should have read Jarvis' post more carefully before I wrote mine--chypritude--exactly!Alyssahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08651065872724626149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-72844898217674427032010-02-26T17:59:22.433+01:002010-02-26T17:59:22.433+01:00Thanks for this. I've had a post in the works ...Thanks for this. I've had a post in the works for a while now following a related train of thought about chypre as a kind of genetic code that can be seen or felt in flashes beyond the classic structure or bergamot/oakmoss. Since I came to perfume only a few years ago, when it was, for all intents and purposes, in a post-chypre moment, it was a category I had to deliberately learn rather than one I absorbed naturally by smelling it on the women around me. Because of my initial confusion, I came to think of chypres as a feeling or form as much as specific set of notes. So there are perfumes that feel to me as though they have chypre cheekbones, even though they are supposed to be orientals. In fact, I associate chypre in general with bone structure--or just structure: tailoring, hauteur, haute couture...Alyssahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08651065872724626149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-84288750489110069252010-02-26T17:39:06.496+01:002010-02-26T17:39:06.496+01:00Dane, Attrape-coeur is one of my great loves, but ...Dane, Attrape-coeur is one of my great loves, but I don't feel it has the same texture or richness in the Chanel, where it's melded into the jasmine. Of course, I do know that when you pick out a note that bugs you, that's that.<br />I haven't reviewed the cologne: it just sort of popped up in the conversation with Mathilde the last time I saw her. But why not? She's pretty much already given me the interview on it, though informally and with just my scribbled notes to go on...carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-47334609231192929972010-02-26T16:19:17.324+01:002010-02-26T16:19:17.324+01:00I think the aspect I like the most of 31 is the si...I think the aspect I like the most of 31 is the similarity with so many of the greats - the richness of Diorella, the peachiness of Mitsouko, the iris of Cuir de Russie. That's also the downside for me - the Attrape-Coeur amber in the base pretty much ruins the whole experience when it sets in. I try and try again to love it, but I just can't...something is missing.<br /><br />Have you reviews Declaration Cologne yet? If not, please do! *off to look*Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-68856757262816162432010-02-26T15:41:30.346+01:002010-02-26T15:41:30.346+01:00Amy, perfume can definitely be smart! Of course, L...Amy, perfume can definitely be smart! Of course, L'Enlèvement au Sérail is much more of a classic chypre (I find it very close to Patou Que sais-je), to the point that I'm wondering whether FK didn't lift the formula somewhere. It's so unlike much of his usual production... Not that I'm complaining.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-56464578760670522742010-02-26T15:36:36.520+01:002010-02-26T15:36:36.520+01:00I haven't hesitated to call 31 rue Cambon a ch...I haven't hesitated to call <i>31 rue Cambon</i> a chypre, but I've also qualified that one way or another every time I did. I kind of like the idea of a perfume tricking me a bit, further proof that perfume can be smart. It's a goreous fragrance, whatever you call it, but I have to admit I don't think I've touched my decant since he EaS muscled its way into my life.StyleSpyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09032983147859861793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-5152305306006895642010-02-26T15:01:18.898+01:002010-02-26T15:01:18.898+01:00Jarvis, of course, the "chypre illusion"...Jarvis, of course, the "chypre illusion" can only work with people who've actually experienced chypre. To others, 31 can work just fine on its own terms.<br /><br />As for Déclaration, JC Ellena wrote the original template (the Bulgari), which was widely copied, and which he must've elaborated on with the later Cartier scent. <br /><br />Clearly, the tea aspect still comes out even in the flanker: according to Mathilde Laurent, it must be because her addition of ginger serves to highlight differently the characteristics of the original formula (which she didn't touch).<br /><br />JC Ellena is very explicit about his work on olfactory illusion (and indeed on the specific "tea" illusion) in his book.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-15787786913215686602010-02-26T14:50:14.964+01:002010-02-26T14:50:14.964+01:00Brava, Denyse. A fantastic and thought provoking e...Brava, Denyse. A fantastic and thought provoking essay. And I loved the idea of Lagerfeld's "fractalization of Chanelitude." Back to this idea of perfume as a deployment of olfactive signs, always referencing and refiguring what has come before, and creating new possibilities for what will come after.<br /><br />What is fascinating to me is the process by which the "chypre code" must have gotten established. We must have experienced years of chypres, from which we as a culture developed some consensus of what constitutes "chypritude" (chypre, <i>sui generis</i>). Not just a matter of the actual ingredients, but more subtly, an implicit network of signs and impressions that signal "chypre." And then *poof* something comes along that says "chypre" without what we thought had been the <i>sine qua non</i>, revealing to us that what we thought was "chypritude" was just a simulacrum.<br /><br />The case of <i>Déclaration</i> is interesting too, because I perceive it as sharing some DNA with Ellena's <i>Eau parfumée au thé vert</i> for Bvlgari. When I smell it, it seems to create the impression of tea without actually smelling anything like green tea. But I think its structure has been borrowed so much over the past almost 20 years and labelled as "tea," that it has <i>become</i> tea, without really having been tea in the first place.Jarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08320628861633769796noreply@blogger.com