tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post1360936854031036377..comments2024-03-29T09:11:58.393+01:00Comments on Grain de musc: Art in Perfumery, a Matter of Intentioncarmencanada /Grain de Muschttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-43623188321400167272011-04-14T10:08:05.992+02:002011-04-14T10:08:05.992+02:00what you say about perfumers having to define them...what you say about perfumers having to define themselves as artists is very true- but I think they are and agree with you, it's good things are changingRosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08459305021803770946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-7341132656472506712011-04-09T10:26:35.086+02:002011-04-09T10:26:35.086+02:00Uella, you know that famous quote "there'...Uella, you know that famous quote "there's a sucker born every minute"... I was thinking of a number of niche brands, or certain specific uber-expensive perfumes fobbed off as "art"... though the people who can afford the latter probably wouldn't know art in perfumery if they were plunged in a vat of it.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-44275016683747070662011-04-09T09:59:36.483+02:002011-04-09T09:59:36.483+02:00His dad believes they were real Tiffany lamps. I&#...His dad believes they were real Tiffany lamps. I'm inclined to think they were, I've seen a few Antiques shows, back in the days american banks built the most luxurious buildings in New York, they had tables, paintings, chairs and desks that reach astronomical prices at auctions.Uellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00470633955030465849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-90429224922981818162011-04-09T09:49:17.928+02:002011-04-09T09:49:17.928+02:00carmencanada, I know what you mean by 'more cr...carmencanada, I know what you mean by 'more crap in artistic clothing will try to pass itself off as art'. I saw this afternoon an 80's skateboard style cotton sweater made in China by Isabel Marant at Barney's with a $500 pricetag on it. Her collection sells like hot cake and she can't even keep up with restocking at her boutique in Soho, the stuff literally flies off the shelves. That being said, I bought the new Serge Lutens 'Encre de Chine' water ink for lips, it's a dark blue color and contrary to what you might think ;-) it's easy to wear and more chic than the former plum and saffron.Uellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00470633955030465849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-16469196078215447432011-04-09T09:32:45.697+02:002011-04-09T09:32:45.697+02:00Uella, I don't know whether those lamps were g...Uella, I don't know whether those lamps were genuine Tiffany pieces or just in the Tiffany style, which would have made a difference to their owners (the bank) as the former could be auctioned off... But even if they were, certain styles acquire their value later on, but are just considered outdated junk for decades: this is why people could amass fabulous Art Nouveau and Art Deco collections in the late 60s early 70s when the style was thought worthless.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-72749524911232470712011-04-09T09:28:58.318+02:002011-04-09T09:28:58.318+02:00Alastair, there definitely is a virtuous circle at...Alastair, there definitely is a virtuous circle at play, alongside the vicious circle of marketing-fuelled launches. It's true that the more awareness of the aesthetic stakes involved there is in the public, the more demand there will be for products with artistic integrity and vision. But also, the more crap in artistic clothing will try to pass itself off as art, as the notion is fetishisized by a certain public.<br />As for Tiffany lamps... in French there is a distinction between "oeuvre d'art" and "objet d'art", the latter being apter to end up in the drawing rooms of the bourgeoisie than the former. Both can undergo the process of kitsch-ification. But that's another topic.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-24318934759561117502011-04-09T09:20:10.208+02:002011-04-09T09:20:10.208+02:00Uella, Serge Lutens is not a perfumer in the sense...Uella, Serge Lutens is not a perfumer in the sense that he could never have expressed his vision without a perfumer who himself had a strong aesthetic vision. His position is quite different from Roudnitska's, who had both the vision and the skills to express it, and who felt the perfume spoke for itself, on its own terms.<br /><br />I think the way perfumers consider themselves varies according to the perfumer. The word "art" is a loaded one and those who bandy it about are not necessarily always those who are the most entitled to appropriate it.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-14233667066807901422011-04-09T09:13:37.734+02:002011-04-09T09:13:37.734+02:00Persolaise, I think one of the things that trigger...Persolaise, I think one of the things that triggered this line of thinking is my reading Flaubert's correspondence. As he write Mme Bovary, he tells his lover Louise Colet, another writer, about his struggle with the *form*, not the story itself.<br /><br />Why am I writing this in reply? Because the work to improve form, style, is the artistic process. So while we cannot superimpose one field on another, I can very much recognize the way I work on my writing in the way certain perfumers work on their formulas.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-76542766307079528212011-04-09T08:58:02.750+02:002011-04-09T08:58:02.750+02:00Alastair, the first job of my boyfriend's fath...Alastair, the first job of my boyfriend's father who immigrated from Croatia to the US was to break into pieces and throw out hundreds of Tiffany lamps at a Bank in Manhattan. He didn't even keep one Tiffany lamp for himself thinking it was junk!Uellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00470633955030465849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-63625734364153350452011-04-09T08:40:08.621+02:002011-04-09T08:40:08.621+02:00This has got me thinking about the arc of L.C. Tif...This has got me thinking about the arc of L.C. Tiffany's work. He definitely considered himself an artist, and, although he began as an adherent of the Asthetic school, he started to approach his window commissions more and more as fine art. But what is really interesting is that his lamps, which were a purely commercial venture (with an artistic sensibility), unintentionally became art objects. To some degree during his lifetime, and certainly a few decades after his death. Today people think "Tiffany lamps," not "Tiffany windows."<br /><br />I guess my point is that art awareness doesn't necessarily need to trickle down from the creators, it could be a phenomenon fueled by educated consumers. Starting with blogs like this one, newspaper columns, etc... I can't help wondering if it might not be the growing awareness of the consumer that could end up legitimizing perfume as art to the world at large. I appreciate the move by the Museum of Design not because I think it will legitimize perfume to the ivory tower, but because it has the potential to encourage more people to think of perfume as an art form. Perhaps perfume is on its way up despite the industry?<br /><br />Thanks again for fostering an interesting discussion!<br /><br />AlastairAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-90076793990501483702011-04-09T08:26:05.917+02:002011-04-09T08:26:05.917+02:00I'm not surprised none of the perfumers got in...I'm not surprised none of the perfumers got involved in the discussion. I think that's why I've always been fascinated by Serge Lutens radically different approach from other perfumers. Edmond Roudnitska was very adamant about making his point that perfumery is an art form. Do most perfumers consider themselves "nose" technicians or artists?Uellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00470633955030465849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-44742652797083796102011-04-08T23:57:55.147+02:002011-04-08T23:57:55.147+02:00Thanks very much for this post, Denyse. This subje...Thanks very much for this post, Denyse. This subject is one with which I struggle a great deal, and as I strive to improve my perfumery skills, I often ask myself if what I'm doing is becoming a better artist. I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer as yet.<br /><br />One point you made which resonated strongly with me is that we mustn't try to define the art of perfumery in relation to the arts of literature, painting etc.Persolaisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04192014353722036319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-88444179857870345672011-04-08T19:40:52.622+02:002011-04-08T19:40:52.622+02:00Parfymerad, I wonder who would bestow that authori...Parfymerad, I wonder who would bestow that authority? By its very structure, internet cannot give monopoly to any one voice. So I wouldn't say any appropriation of discourse will happen online: people can position themselves as better experts, and/or have more technical knowledge, but in no way is this hindering the increase in discourse, on the contrary. The knowledge builds up.<br />I would say that any appropriation could come through cultural institutions and/or mainstream media.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-5361616971888656482011-04-08T19:26:29.779+02:002011-04-08T19:26:29.779+02:00This is a comment by Parfymerad which popped into ...This is a comment by Parfymerad which popped into my inbox but has somehow failed to show up here, so I'm copy/pasting it:<br /><br /><br />Once again, a very interesting post -- the book-writing has obviously set you thinking :)<br /><br />The task of finding an appropriate language for discussing perfume as art (or as a beautiful possibility, or...) is a fascinating one but I suppose one question one might ask is ‘whose language?’ As a corollary to the control of discourse attempted/desired by brand interests the ‘professionalisation’ of perfume criticism might also require ‘watching’. In any art-form the formalisation of criticism brings with it its own potential for academic control/monopoly; it would be a pity if the amorphous but vigorous body of online perfume commentary were to be narrowed down to a core of elite commentators ‘authorised’ by their mastery of a specific vocabulary, industry contacts etc (unlikely, I know; really I'm thinking more about the allocation of critical authority). I suppose the way to think about it is, as you suggest, as a search for vocabularies in the plural, not for a singular master-discourse.<br /><br />Sorry, always write the ridiculous long comments!carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-79517652408403529682011-04-08T19:15:38.776+02:002011-04-08T19:15:38.776+02:00Kit, yes, the analogy is not entirely adequate, wh...Kit, yes, the analogy is not entirely adequate, which is why I tend to think more along the line of the cinema: the Hitchcocks, Renoirs and Wilders of yesteryear were creating art that would draw in the maximum number of spectators, and nevertheless it was art. It was when the Cahiers du Cinéma pointed out that there was a vision at play that these filmmakers were perceived as authors, despite the restrictions they operated in.<br /><br />As for intention, I actually do think it's the necessary condition. Otherwise, as I wrote, perfumers can follow their tastes, their clients' tastes, they can even have taste, but that self-awareness of what they're doing is what allows them to create new forms. <br />This does not invalidate the perception of perfumery as an art form in the online community: but this is not the only possible perception and depending on the product, the approach can be more consumer-driven, which has its legitimacy as well.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-53111455736048343902011-04-08T19:03:42.655+02:002011-04-08T19:03:42.655+02:00Normand (PerfumeChronicles), the scientific dimens...Normand (PerfumeChronicles), the scientific dimension is perhaps less of a hindrance than the technical or commercial one, since perfumers do have an amount of scientific knowledge but don't actually have to be scientists -- many of the greatest had no training at all though today it is necessary to have a degree in chemistry to be admitted to ISIPCA as far as I know, and though a number of perfumers came up through the scientific/technical branch.<br />Where there is a divergence with art as it is practiced today is in the technical know-how involved.<br /><br />As for artists of the past and commissions, I'll address that my response to Kit's comment...carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-11829905288212326152011-04-08T18:48:24.842+02:002011-04-08T18:48:24.842+02:00I was thinking along the same lines as theperfumec...I was thinking along the same lines as theperfumechronicles, in that a few hundred years ago, artists and musicians created at the pleasure of their patrons. Like our modern-day perfumers, who must please their parent companies, these earlier artists had to satisfy their patrons for their livelihood. <br /><br />The problem I ran into with this analogy is that, most of the time, these artists and musicians only had to please one person. They did not have to worry about their work's appeal to the populace at large. In that regard, the analogy is more apt with bespoke perfumes, created only for one person, than it is with most marketed perfumes, designed to please as many people as possible. As we have seen, this tends to bring many perfumes down to the lowest common denominator and certainly makes it more difficult to treat them as art. However, one could also point out that not every artist is a Michelangelo, but the quantity of less compelling art makes the true gems stand out.<br /><br />All this aside, though, I think we do see movements in perfumery. We pick out the great examples of perfumes within those movements and comment on what makes them particularly notable, whether it be technical brilliance or simple loveliness. I'm in no way an art critic or an art historian, but it seems to me that, despite many perfumers' non-participation, the perfume community has already been treating perfume as art. Does it really matter if the perfumers intended to create art? We believe they have and treat it as such. Maybe we're seeing the nascent understanding of perfume as art.<br /><br />That wandered a bit, but I hope it makes sense.<br /><br />The Second KitKitnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-4071832333464055672011-04-08T18:37:35.862+02:002011-04-08T18:37:35.862+02:00Once again, a very interesting post -- the book-wr...Once again, a very interesting post -- the book-writing has obviously set you thinking :)<br /><br />The task of finding an appropriate language for discussing perfume as art (or as a beautiful possibility, or...) is a fascinating one but I suppose one question one might ask is ‘whose language?’ As a corollary to the control of discourse attempted/desired by brand interests the ‘professionalisation’ of perfume criticism might also require ‘watching’. In any art-form the formalisation of criticism brings with it its own potential for academic control/monopoly; it would be a pity if the amorphous but vigorous body of online perfume commentary were to be narrowed down to a core of elite commentators ‘authorised’ by their mastery of a specific vocabulary, industry contacts etc (unlikely, I know; really I'm thinking more about the allocation of critical authority). I suppose the way to think about it is, as you suggest, as a search for vocabularies in the plural, not for a singular master-discourse.<br /><br />Sorry, always write the ridiculous long comments!Parfymeradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-57193180482394916832011-04-08T17:37:57.138+02:002011-04-08T17:37:57.138+02:00This connection between the creation of perfume an...This connection between the creation of perfume and the science of it all seems to hold perfume back from calling itself "art". Actually, when I think of perfume, I think of photography (and architecture for that matter) because when I worked as a photographer, the chemistry of development and, in particular the sepia and selenium finishes, fascinated me. It was the worlds of art and science together that interested me in photography in the first place. It's what interests me in perfume. The same goes for architecture... artistic expression but limited by technical issues.<br /><br />We think of painting as the ultimate artform and so we use it as a yardstick to measure other expressions. When compared to painting, perfume seems to fall short. As you say, "client briefs and budgets" prohibit perfumers calling themselves artists. But the great Renaissance painters were often told what to paint by their benefactors... and given a budget... and we don't hesitate for a minute calling them artists. "And by the way, your artistic expression has to fit on this vaulted ceiling... good luck!"<br /><br />Great post... difficult topic!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-24785799281656558772011-04-08T14:35:09.575+02:002011-04-08T14:35:09.575+02:00Kit, clearly "purification" is relevant ...Kit, clearly "purification" is relevant in both cases -- and problematic. This is why I was referring to Bourriaud, as an art theorist who is attempting to define different notions of what constitutes art than those predominantly held. Also why I underlined the formal quest of perfumers as a specificity of their idiom. It's a practice that sets its own terms. Rather than attempt to make away with those terms, I think they have to be thought out. I'm not sure postulating that perfume is one of the fine arts is necessary to appreciate it as an artistic practice... Edmond Roudnitska called it "une belle possibilité" and I'll go along with that.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-60338161778384736452011-04-08T14:11:15.120+02:002011-04-08T14:11:15.120+02:00Back to African art, for a moment. Yes, I underst...Back to African art, for a moment. Yes, I understood you to be making that point, and don't think the issues are exclusively African by any means. It's also been a point of aesthetic/political creative contest for some time, and a very productive one too. <br /><br />During the Harlem Renaissance of the 1920's the big debate was whether artists & writers should be working to "advance the race" by demonstrating that black people were capable of making art (as opposed to 'craft' or 'folk' stuff or nothing) or to express themselves even if it meant they said things that played into racial stereotypes. More recently, in respect of transnationalism, migration, and diasporic communities, the point has been made that it's routes, not roots which count in the formaton of identity. Also very productive, and itself part of the building of a critical discourse which contributed to legitimating the objects in question (in some cases these were the people). But, yes, perhaps too far away from the central point, at least for now.<br /><br />Where I was trying to go with the discussion, was to draw to our attention (a)the processes of separation which we take for granted, and allow us to consider "art" as only a certain kind of thing, separated from other kinds of things (say, science things or medicine things) - and thus, (b) the ways in which an object has to be transfigured or reconstituted in order to be taken as art. <br /><br />Both are processes of "purification", and the reason why I chose African art as an example is because one can see most clearly the process by which an object becomes denuded or dispossessed of its social context in order to become art. This is relevant to "perfume as art" becuase perfume can't really make that transition if it can't be divorced from a context of use. We can say that this is what the Museum of Design will be attempting, but that, so far, only No.5 has achieved this "by itself"- and it has done so by the process of 'outliving' innumerable social contexts while itself remaning 'unchanged" and commercially successful - in this sense timeless. My argument would be that if we keep sharply distinguishing the instrumental from the aesthetic, we enter the fray having already given up too much! xxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-91210672730233643252011-04-08T14:00:33.400+02:002011-04-08T14:00:33.400+02:00Alexander, I believe it is indeed up to the client...Alexander, I believe it is indeed up to the client brands to develop as strong discourse, to "cast" perfumers skilfully and to work with them along the lines that have been established. On the other hand, brand-generated discourse will always be subject to scrutiny -- I'm watching brand blogs with a beady eye -- and cannot aspire to own the discourse developed around their products. The more sources of light to shed on them, the better.carmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-21262905737817737692011-04-08T13:54:47.023+02:002011-04-08T13:54:47.023+02:00I think you are probably right- the time for manif...I think you are probably right- the time for manifestos has passed- and indeed I think some niche brands do have a clear manifesto and have been developing the artistic landscape for perfumers - along with the blogosphere heaping praise. AT's efforts are admirable. <br /><br />Perhaps one might now say that the blogosphere has begun to organise itself into having a critical role (in both senses of the word). There will always be space for all sorts of commentary on the web, no one being priviledged over another, but one should not hold back from pushing the boundaries towards a high level discourse.<br /><br />For some it may ruin the magic, but I for one want to know more!Alexander Greenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18363392845501737622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-260709558902029332011-04-08T11:54:51.021+02:002011-04-08T11:54:51.021+02:00Kit, about African artists (or Latin American, or ...Kit, about African artists (or Latin American, or Asia, or from wherever else for that matter), I was taking it the other way round: as a possibility of *not* having to trade on one's ethnicity/origin in order to be taken into consideration. Of not overtly displaying it, no more than one would need to overtly display one's gender in an artwork. Bourriaud talks about the way artists are defining themselves no longer through origins but through destinations.<br />But I agree, that takes us pretty far from the issue at hand. <br /><br />Relational aesthetics is a way of considering the type of art that builds in deliberately the relations/reactions of the viewers: performance art, for instance, or installations. <br /><br />As for law being beautiful, I guess it depends on what the definition of beauty is, and no one's ever agreed on that! Let's say the primary intent is not aesthetic but ethical. But it's been a couple of decades since I've read Kant, and the last time gave me fever, so I won't do it again! xxcarmencanada /Grain de Muschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046101625425953248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4922907157797061660.post-9758941507200516272011-04-08T11:19:42.707+02:002011-04-08T11:19:42.707+02:00Hi, there! Re African art, yes, I know, but that ...Hi, there! Re African art, yes, I know, but that started at the very commencement of the development of this critical language, and was a significant topic in the politics of the art itself and the artists. And of course many artists who are African also live and practice in Europe, but are still regarded or would regard themselves as African artists. It was too much of a sidebar issue for the point I was using it to make yesterday. There is a whole issue about this "purifying" process I mentioned - stripping the work of its "ethnicity" or its social history as if that were proof of its virtue and thus its entitlement to be truly "art" is not an apolitical process. <br /><br />I'll be interested to explore Bourriaud's approach and look forward to reading his book. From an anthropological point of view, there is nothing that is not relational. Given that human beings are social creatures from the moment of our birth, there is actually no such thing as a single human being. Even when you look at one, you are looking at many. So, from an anthropological point of view, the concept of the relational puts forward as an explanation exactly what itself needs explaining.<br /><br />As for lawyers and beauty, I think justice is beautiful. People walking free to live their lives in security is beautiful. I left out yesterday, again too much of a sidebar, the point that the way I came to think about how lawyers think was through work I was doing on international humanitarian law, war law, and human rights law. This was the context into which my interest in perfume "erupted". <br /><br />big hugs, KAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com